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	<title>Clayton Reed &#187; Travels</title>
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	<description>Lead Pastor of Southlake Baptist Church</description>
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		<title>Ecclesiastical Separation, Part 5</title>
		<link>http://clayreed.net/2010/07/10/ecclesiastical-separation-part-5/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jul 2010 15:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayreed.net/?p=457</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Discerning the difference between error and heresy is not the only issue we face, however. There are many non-fundamental issues on which we may sincerely disagree with other genuine believers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While we would not recommend that younger men in our movement spend large amounts of time with the brother who is in error until they have a full and balanced view of theology, we ought to be able to sit across the table from or stand on a platform with someone with whom we are not in complete agreement and proclaim the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ to people who are lost in their sins and headed to an eternal hell. <span id="more-457"></span> </p>
<p><strong>A practical approach</strong></p>
<p>Discerning the difference between error and heresy is not the only issue we face, however. There are many non-fundamental issues on which we may sincerely disagree with other genuine believers. Some of those issues are quite significant. It stands to reason that we may feel more comfortable partnering with one group than another, depending on the type of work involved. How do we decide when it is appropriate to work together?</p>
<p><strong>One framework already suggests itself, based on the comments above:</strong></p>
<p><strong>Group 1:</strong> This is heresy. No Godspeed. They are tampering with the Gospel.<br />
<strong>Group 2:</strong> This is significant error. They are not enemies. We do, however, disagree on important issues.<br />
<strong>Group 3:</strong> This is minor error. We have different standards. We differ in our application of certain texts.</p>
<p><strong>A set of responses is implied by that framework:</strong></p>
<p><strong>Response 1:</strong> No interaction, cooperation, or fellowship.<br />
<strong>Response 2:</strong> Not enemies. Kindness, limited cooperation on non-core projects.<br />
<strong>Response 3:</strong> Friends.  Cooperation on core projects.</p>
<p>A practical guideline for deciding whether a Fundamental Christian or church can fellowship and cooperate with another Christian individual or group would be to examine the prospective relationship and ask how close it comes to the mission of winning souls and planting churches. <strong>The closer a proposed relationship or project to evangelism and church planting, the greater discretion must be exercised.</strong></p>
<p><strong>If we are planting churches together, we need very close theological agreement.</strong> A team project that plans to distribute food and water to disaster victims, however, might be composed of believers who hold quite varied beliefs. Teamwork that intends to make disciples – baptizing and teaching – would need to have a high degree of agreement, even on non-essential doctrines. What will we teach them about the security of the believer and the perseverance of the saints? How will we practice baptism and the Lord’s Supper?</p>
<p>Ecclesiastical separation is an important issue for the church. We must be sure we do not compromise the Gospel, but we also must be careful that we do not dishonor our Lord by twisting the Scripture and displaying an arrogant, judgmental spirit. We must lift our eyes to see the fields that are “white unto harvest” and hear the call from Macedonia to “come over and help us.” Loyal to the revealed Word of God, passionate for the lost, willing to work in some way with any genuine Christian, we must forge ahead. This age has its share of skeptics who try to undermine confidence in God’s Word and the Christ to which it bears witness. The Bible, however, needs no defense, and one day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord. In the meantime, we ought to join every willing, warm-hearted Christian in advancing our Lord’s kingdom while it is day, because “the night cometh, when no man can work.”</p>
<p><a href="http://southlakebaptist.com/dl/ecclessepdoc.pdf">Download</a> the entire series of posts as a PDF</p>
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		<title>Ecclesiastical Separation, Part 4</title>
		<link>http://clayreed.net/2010/07/09/ecclesiastical-separation-part-4/</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayreed.net/?p=446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Psalm 119:63 says, “I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.” The esteemed John R. Rice, founding editor of “The Sword of the Lord,” was a man of God who made no bones about the evils of modernist liberalism, yet he said that “on the authority [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Psalm 119:63 says, <em>“I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.”</em> The esteemed John R. Rice, founding editor of “<em>The Sword of the Lord</em>,” was a man of God who made no bones about the evils of modernist liberalism, yet he said that “on the authority of that verse I decided … that I would be for the man who is for Christ and the Bible.  So I work with all people of God who are born again and live like it and believe the Bible and who are willing to work with other Christians.” (Dr. Rice Goes to College) <span id="more-446"></span></p>
<p>Consider these words of Rice from his sermon “<em>Christian Cooperation and Separation</em>” preached in 1959:</p>
<p><em>Somebody says, “Here is a fellow wrong on baptism.” Well, that is too bad.  Bring him around and I will help straighten him out.  But meantime, is he born again?  Does he believe the Bible?  Does he love Jesus Christ?  If he does, then he is a brother and you are to receive him.</p>
<p>You say, “This person talks in tongues.” Well, personally I prefer the English tongue!  But a man who talks in tongues – is he saved?  Yes.  Does he believe the Bible?  Yes.  Does he love the Lord?  Yes.  Is he right on all the essentials about Christ and the Bible?  If so, I can have fellowship with him, provided he does not make doubtful disputations.</p>
<p>Here is a postmillennialist.  Shall we let him co-operate in a revival campaign?  Now a man can be saved, yet be a postmillennialist.  He is wrong, of course, but would you let this saved postmillennialist come in a revival campaign?  Yes, if he makes no divisive issue of his postmillennialism.<br />
 <br />
You say, “This man is an Arminian.” Well, he is wrong if he believes Jesus saves you part of the way and you save yourself the rest of the way; He saves you the first second, then the rest of the sixty years you have got to keep yourself saved.  That is wrong.  I don’t agree with him at all, but he can still be a good Christian.  Many of the best Christians are not very clear on some minor matters of doctrine.  But for Jesus – yes sir!  For Christ, for the Bible, the virgin birth, blood atonement, deity, the bodily resurrection – yes sir!  Now if he makes no divisive issue and strife, let him in, let him co-operate, seek his fellowship.</p>
<p>Here is a preacher who believes in sprinkling.  But is he saved?  Is he for Christ?  For the Bible?  The important thing is, Is a man for Christ and the Bible?  If he is and he makes no divisive issues and strife, then fellowship with him.  So the Scripture teaches.<br />
 <br />
That means I can fellowship with some who fellowship with some they ought not fellowship with. (p.91-92) Would you fellowship with a man in the Southern Baptist Convention?  Suppose he supports the Convention program.  (Because of long experience with my Southern Baptist people and because I was trained in Southern Baptist schools, pastored Southern Baptist churches, I use them as an example.)  </p>
<p>Could you fellowship with such a man in a revival campaign, if he is for Christ and the Bible, if he is right on the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection, blood atonement?  Is he standing up for the Bible?  Yes.  I am sorry that he supports some things he ought not support.  Perhaps he does not know as much as I do about it.  In any case, if he makes no divisive issue over that co-operation, I would say go along with him.  Let him come in the revival and help.</p>
<p>Now then, would you go along with people you differ with?  Yes, if the difference is on minor things, but not on whether the Bible is true, not on whether Christ is born of a virgin, not on whether the blood of Jesus paid for sins, not on whether Jesus rose again, not on whether you need to be born again.  On certain essentials about Christ, salvation, the Person and work of Christ, there is no room for difference, no room for co-operation when people differ on the main things. (p.93). </em></p>
<p>Many in our modern-day Independent Baptist movement would find the above statements shocking!  But I think our Baptist forefathers would find our modern attitude about Ecclesiastical Separation to be “shocking.” So what does a Biblical structure of &#8220;Ecclesiastical Separation&#8221; look like?  The last post in this series will look at a sensible structure of cooperation going forward&#8230;. </p>
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		<title>Ecclesiastical Separation, Part 3</title>
		<link>http://clayreed.net/2010/07/07/ecclesiastical-separation-part-3/</link>
		<comments>http://clayreed.net/2010/07/07/ecclesiastical-separation-part-3/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Recognize the difference We must recognize the difference between heresy and error. We treat neither lightly, but we do not presume to treat brothers in Christ with whom we disagree about non-fundamentals the same way we separate ourselves from those who eviscerate the Gospel by denying its fundamental truths. Paul was very clear: There is [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Recognize the difference</strong></p>
<p>We must recognize the difference between heresy and error. We treat neither lightly, but we do not presume to treat brothers in Christ with whom we disagree about non-fundamentals the same way we separate ourselves from those who eviscerate the Gospel by denying its fundamental truths. Paul was very clear: There is to be no love lost with people who are perverting the Gospel and sending people to hell by their teaching. We do not have to be unkind, but those who pretend to be Christians yet are deceiving people about what is required for salvation, are to be anathema to us. <span id="more-428"></span></p>
<p><a href="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/ecccutoutpost3.2.png"><img src="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/ecccutoutpost3.2.png" alt="" title="ecccutoutpost3.2" width="590" height="170" class="alignnone size-full wp-image-436" /></a></p>
<p>On the other hand, when we consider a brother who agrees with us about the fundamental truths of the Gospel, yet differs on other areas, we are not faced with heresy that leads unsuspecting souls into hell. Error is not heresy. I am fully convinced the Bible teaches what I believe and practice, but a brother&#8217;s tradition may differ. One day he may discover he was mistaken, but honestly so, or we may discover we both were mistaken.</p>
<p>My attitude toward him must not be like the attitude I hold toward a teacher of heresy. We must be discerning about the difference between error and heresy, and we must be careful to not use inflammatory terms about those with whom we only disagree on non-fundamentals. If we are confronting heresy, then we say “heretic” without hesitation. Error, however, is like a child getting a question wrong on a math quiz; another child who knew the right answer shouldn’t abuse him for being in error. The attitude of Ecclesiastical Separation is every bit as important as the doctrine&#8217;s substance. With heretics, there is no compromise. We turn them over to God; we certainly don’t preach with them. Our attitude about non-fundamental disagreements, however, must be entirely different.</p>
<p>Romans 14:1-10 is most helpful on this point. <em>“Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”</em> (v.5b) The believer in error is not my servant, but another’s: <em>“Who art thou that judgest another man&#8217;s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth.”</em> (v.4) Not only is he another’s servant, but he also is my brother: <em>“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.”</em> (v.10) Paul clearly identifies the brother in error as “weak in the faith” but exhorts us to receive him, as long as he is not one determined to engage us in “doubtful disputations.” (v.1) Indeed, an argumentative spirit – whether it is mine or another’s – is a sign of carnality. Paul admonished the church at Corinth that the strife and divisions among them were evidence that they were walking as men, rather than following the example of Christ Jesus. (1 Corinthians 3:3)</p>
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		<title>Ecclesiastical Separation, Part 2</title>
		<link>http://clayreed.net/2010/07/05/ecclesiastical-separation-part-2/</link>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[What does the Bible say about Ecclesiastical Separation? We cannot, of course, engage in an exhaustive review of the relevant Scripture in this venue. We will, however, touch on texts that do speak to Ecclesiastical Separation and mention texts that are commonly misapplied. Not only is it important to understand what the Bible does say, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>What does the Bible say about Ecclesiastical Separation?</strong></p>
<p>We cannot, of course, engage in an exhaustive review of the relevant Scripture in this venue. We will, however, touch on texts that do speak to Ecclesiastical Separation and mention texts that are commonly misapplied. Not only is it important to understand what the Bible does say, but we also must recognize what it does not say and where it is twisted to mean things it does not mean.  <span id="more-420"></span></p>
<p>One must, for example, take very seriously 2 Peter 2:1, which warns <em>“there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”</em> Second Corinthians 11:3-4 also is pertinent in warning about being “<em>corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ” by those who “preacheth another Jesus … or another Gospel.”</em> Second John 7-11 warns about <em> “deceivers … who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”</em> and declares such a deceiver is “an antichrist.”</p>
<p>Scripture clearly commands us to condemn people who mess with or pervert the Gospel.  There can be no equivocation about this:</p>
<p><em>Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.</em> (Galatians 1:7-9)</p>
<p>Charles Spurgeon said it like this, </p>
<p>A chasm is opening between men who believe their Bibles and the men who are prepared for an advance upon Scripture. The house is being robbed, its very walls are being digged down, but the good people who are in bed are too fond of the warmth, and too much afraid of getting broken heads, to go down stairs and meet the burglars . . . Inspiration and speculation cannot long abide in peace. Compromise there can be none. We cannot hold the inspiration of the Word, and yet reject it; we cannot believe in the atonement and deny it; we cannot hold the doctrine of the fall and yet talk of the evolution of spiritual life from human nature; we cannot recognize the punishment of the impenitent and yet indulge the ‘larger hope&#8217;. One way or the other we must go. Decision is the virtue of the hour.&#8221; (C.H.S., September 1887, The Sword and the Trowel)</p>
<p>On the other hand, some texts have been misapplied to argue for separation from Christians who differ in non-fundamental belief and practice. One could mention Ephesians 5:11 – <em>&#8220;Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness…,&#8221;</em> although in context the Apostle Paul is warning about unbelievers who have no <em>“inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”</em> Also often misapplied is 2 Corinthians 6:14 – <em>&#8220;Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers&#8230;,&#8221;</em> a passage in which Paul was exhorting believers recently delivered from paganism to not allow themselves to be drawn back into Corinth’s gross immorality. He wanted them to influence the pagans around them for the sake of Christ, without being influenced by them. Twisting the passage to mean that Christians ought to separate themselves from other believers with whom they do not completely agree is a distortion of God’s Word.</p>
<p>If you missed it. <a href="http://clayreed.net/2010/06/30/ecclesiastical-separation-part-1/">Ecclesiastical Separation, Part 1 </a></p>
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		<title>Ecclesiastical Separation, Part 1</title>
		<link>http://clayreed.net/2010/06/30/ecclesiastical-separation-part-1/</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2010 18:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Psalm 119:63 says, “I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.” One of the hallmarks of the Baptist movement is Ecclesiastical Separation, and taking a biblical stand on the matter is crucial. Failure to observe the Scripture’s mandates on Ecclesiastical Separation endangers the integrity of the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Psalm 119:63 says, <em>“I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.”</em><span id="more-408"></span><br />
One of the hallmarks of the Baptist movement is Ecclesiastical Separation, and taking a biblical stand on the matter is crucial. Failure to observe the Scripture’s mandates on Ecclesiastical Separation endangers the integrity of the Gospel with which we have been entrusted. Sometimes, however, our own ideas about Ecclesiastical Separation fall short – neglecting the clear instructions of the Bible or adding our own opinions to the Word of God. </p>
<p>We must adopt a biblical position that, in the spirit of Christ, steers us clear of heresy yet maintains the fellowship of the Faith that maximizes our impact on a lost world for the cause of Christ.</p>
<p><strong>What is Ecclesiastical Separation?</strong></p>
<p>We are discussing in this venue a church-level separation in ecclesiology. Although the individual’s personal separation from evil is essential, we are concerned here with defining proper relationships and interactions between New Testament churches and other groups or organizations that identify themselves as Christian. Those groups or organizations would range from other bona fide New Testament churches with which we would find ourselves in complete agreement, to other bodies of authentic faith that we find to be in error on important doctrines, to apostate “churches” that have abandoned the fundamentals of biblical truth.</p>
<p><strong>Why is Ecclesiastical Separation important?</strong></p>
<p>Failure to maintain an appropriate degree of ecclesiastical separation is a violation of Scripture.  The dangers are twofold. On the one hand, failure to stand clearly for the essentials of the Gospel can only hinder the progress of the Gospel. We endanger the clear transmission of Gospel to next generation when we create a “camouflage Christianity” in which the “Gospel” is just another choice among many options. On the other hand, we can become consumed by endless arguments with other believers about doctrines that are not clearly enumerated in Scripture or about preferences based on our application of the Scripture. As a result, we fail to exhibit the Christ-like spirit by which a lost world recognizes us as God’s people.</p>
<p>There is another way in which an extra-biblical stance on Ecclesiastical Separation leads to a dangerous obscuring of the Gospel. If we insist Gospel partnerships can be formed only with those with whom we are in complete agreement on every issue, we will inevitably find ourselves working alone, separated from other Christians with whom we completely agree about the fundamentals of the faith. We are left unable to create any kind of network for the advance of the true Gospel because we differ over non-fundamentals. We lose influence on a lost world because we cannot join hands with brothers and sisters in Christ to attack challenges too large for us to tackle alone.</p>
<p>Some inevitably will point out that in the past cooperative efforts have often failed. We have seen brothers of fundamental conviction engage other Christian groups in an effort to draw them back from doctrinal error, only to fail. Failure, however, is not pertinent. What matters is obedience to the Bible’s commands. When inspired Scripture lays out the conditions that require us to separate ourselves from others, nothing else matters. My philosophy, my ideas, my success – or someone else’s failure – are irrelevant. The only question that matters is, “What does Scripture say?”</p>
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		<title>An incredible church, a great church planter!</title>
		<link>http://clayreed.net/2009/07/07/an-incredible-church-a-great-church-planter/</link>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I recently attended a retreat with several church planters from around the United States. There I was introduced to Chris Edwards, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in South Charlotte (N.C.), who has planted an incredible church in a very affluent area of the city. That intrigued me because Independent Baptists typically avoid those two demographics [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently attended a retreat with several church planters from around the United States. There I was introduced to Chris Edwards, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in South Charlotte (N.C.), who has planted an incredible church in a very affluent area of the city.  That intrigued me because Independent Baptists typically avoid those two demographics – large cities and affluent areas. I decided to visit his church and check it out for myself.<br />
<span id="more-177"></span></p>
<p><a href="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/leadsongs.jpg"><img src="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/leadsongs-225x300.jpg" alt="" title="leadsongs" width="225" height="300" class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-188" /></a><br />
On Sunday morning, I arrived just before Sunday School began.</p>
<p>General impressions:</p>
<p>	•	 The place looked great!  The church was meeting in a “Day School” – a glorified day care center – and is “converted” into a church every weekend by a very dedicated group of volunteers.  The building was modern and easy to find on the street.<br />
	•	People were exceedingly friendly.  Many churches advertise as the friendly church … yet few are ever really that friendly.  At this church, I was worn out by the friendly!  Not the fake smiles and quick pat on the back, but genuine interest in me and my travelling companion.<br />
	•	It was easy to park. They had a team of people helping people find parking places.<br />
	•	It was clean.<br />
	•	Kids were taken care of. Because they meet in a day care center, they have great facilities for children.  Outdoor play areas, toys … you name it.<br />
During Sunday School, I saw room after room full of excited children being taught tremendous Bible lessons with great graphics.  Most of the adults stayed in the auditorium and listened to the pastor teach.<br />
<a href="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/coupleatfront.jpg"><img src="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/coupleatfront-300x225.jpg" alt="" title="coupleatfront" width="300" height="225" class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-189" /></a></p>
<p>During the church service, the following things stuck out:<br />
	•	 The service was well done.<br />
	•	They kept things moving.  No five-minute interruption for announcements. Everything moved.<br />
	•	The auditorium was absolutely packed.  I sat on the front row because there were no other seats available.<br />
	•	They had a great Sunday night crowd.  There were even fewer seats available on Sunday night.  It was 100° outside and the AC couldn’t keep up, but 262 people came back for more on Sunday evening.  How many of us can say that?<br />
￼<br />
<a href="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/crowd2.jpg"><img src="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/crowd2-300x225.jpg" alt="" title="crowd2" width="300" height="225" class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-190" /></a></p>
<p>Take a look at the growth trend in this church’s average attendance:</p>
<p>2004 — 51 <br />
2005 — 123 <br />
2006 — 152 <br />
2007 — 216 <br />
2008 — 256 <br />
2009 — 295</p>
<p>Taken in context, those are incredible numbers!</p>
<p>General observations:</p>
<p>1. Pastor Edwards respects people’s time.  The kids had put on a special camp service on Sunday evening, and during his preaching time, he said, “I am only going to preach for 15 minutes, because I want you to come back next week.”<br />
2.  They have been wise about real estate.  They have avoided the big building/lease payment and have been able to save up enough money to buy an incredible piece of property for future building needs.<br />
3. To many, using a day care center would not seem to be an optimum choice, but it has been great for this church.  People feel good about having their kids in such a nice, secure environment.<br />
4.  Setting up and breaking down for services on Sunday and Wednesday are incredibly labor intensive and require dozens of people to move literally hundreds of pieces of furniture and chairs.  To many, this would seem to be a great hindrance, but to this church, it is a great bonding point and opportunity for cooperation.  </p>
<p><a href="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/chairsmove.jpg"><img src="http://clayreed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/chairsmove-300x225.jpg" alt="" title="chairsmove" width="300" height="225" class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-191" /></a></p>
<p>5.  This church is not about the staff. They don’t have much staff, so volunteers handle pretty much everything.  There is a tremendous level of participation in the ministry from the people of Grace Baptist.<br />
6. The pastor was fun.  I know this doesn’t seem very Independent Baptist, but that guy has a good time! He is constantly cutting up with people.  (You ought to hear his Alison Krauss imitation)<br />
7. The people were excited about what was going on at that church. There was a tremendous liberty in the services.<br />
8. Pastor Edwards’ wife is well loved and respected by church members.  Pastor Edwards told me many times how key his wife has been in what has happened around Grace.<br />
9. Pastor Edwards (like Pastor Neal in the previous blog) is a second-generation pastor. He seems to have had a tremendous head-start in ministry from the experience gained by being around his father.<br />
10. Pastor Edwards has attracted a key group of “driven” young couples around him.<br />
11.  Pastor Edwards works.  He had several 18 to 20 hour work days the week I was there.  The Lords blesses a disciplined approach to ministry.<br />
12.  Pastor Edwards connects the Bible with people’s hearts.  His messages were easy to understand, Bible-centered, and practical.<br />
13.  The music was well done.  Several of the specials involved violins and other instruments.  It was obvious that people had practiced and were prepared.</p>
<p>Pray for Pastor Edwards.  He has some needs and important decisions must be made with regard to building space.  If you are a young church planter, I would encourage to visit Pastor Edwards’ ministry and see for yourself.</p>
<p>You can find out more about Grace Baptist Church at <a href="http://wwww.gbcsc.com">www.gbcsc.com</a>.  </p>
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